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Went Hot: January 16, 2008 - 9:38 pm
Posted By: seofactor 357 days ago
Topic Type: News Story (Jump to http://www.seo-factor.com)
Category: SEM Industry
27 Comments
Went Hot: January 16, 2008 - 9:38 pm
Posted By: seofactor 357 days ago
Topic Type: News Story (Jump to http://www.seo-factor.com)
Category: SEM Industry
27 Comments
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Comments
Way to defend your craft...and your integrity with a copious amount of supporting points for your rebuttal.
So who wants to do what Neil Patel did from Pronet / ACS when Jason Calacanis said the same?
There are so many things I would change in the way Shoemoney does his site, but at the end of the day there are multiple ways to SEO for similar results, and any change might have insignificant benefits compared to existing traffic sources.
Impressive use of SEO is Jim Boykin now ranking 3rd for Shoemoney on the Internet Marketing Ninjas site, there have been a flood of links to those demo videos
Erm I don't even know if Shoemoney is serious with his post. Don't think he has the same kind of distaste for SEO as Calacanis did/does. He seems to hang out a lot with folks in the industry.
He's probably talking about SEOs who specialize in mystification: promises of secret hacks that'll get your page to the top spot in the SERPS in return for $XX,XX dollars.
And I don't think he links out to any site for no reason... Jeremy is a smart guy. :)
@Dosh:
For calcanis, it's "does"
Saw one of his rants recently, Calcanis hasn't lost any steam. (that is to say, he's still full of hot air)
I posted this on your blog, but I'll repeat here:
Josh - I think that while, when pulled from context, Jeremy's statements sound a bit off, he's just an exaggerated writer sometimes. I honestly think that he's making a dig far more against the bottom-feeders of the SEO industry (of which, admittedly, there are more than a few) than against the industry as a whole. Now granted, it doesn't come off that way, and I think his 95% number is ridiculously high (and probably intended more as sensationalism than anything else), but that's his style. He likes to exaggerate and overstate and does so with everything from his musings on consumer products to how much he actually loves affiliate t-shirts (seriously, no one could love t-shirts that much) to his celebrity-dom (sure, he's a rock star in certain tech circles, but Hollywood isn't calling anytime soon). I personally take it with a grain of salt and laugh it off a bit.
The statement I think he made that's misleading is about hiring SEOs who know search engineers. I'd have to say that most of the best and brightest (I don't know, let's say... 95%) SEOs I've encountered don't know a single search engineer by name and don't need to! SE's are NOT based on the "do I know you and like you algorithm," they're based on the "I don't care if you're my best friend or an evil, ruthless madman, I'm ranking your content based on the factors." I wish he didn't propagate that piece of misinformation.
"seriously, no one could love t-shirts that much"
Hey, I'd love anything people send me for free with all my heart and soul :P See how much I would love a moz t-shirt, or a shoemoney tshirt, try me out people :)
"I honestly think that he's making a dig far more against the bottom-feeders of the SEO industry"
Rand, the title of Shoe's post says 95% of SEO Experts.
"There are so many things I would change in the way Shoemoney does his site"
The thing is Shoe doesn't need search traffic to his blog to keep making money. That's why SEO to guys like Shoe or John Chow is a hard sell - their blogs aren't desperate for Google traffic. Also any site restructuring will only result in a marginal improvement; if you want to increase daily conversions, you have to do alot more than that.
I'm not pissed at what Shoe said. I agree with him. The cold hard truth is that there are alot of SEOs who don't know what the hell they're doing. Reputation is often built around what people write on their blogs. Anyone can talk a good game, but who can walk the walk?
Referrals is one way of weeding out SOS, but then again, friends refer clients to friends; that type of referral isn't based on performance. I've also referred a client to one guy in particualr that I thought would follow through (based on his rep). But the guy turned out to be a disappointment.
Bottom line is that SEO is worth the investment but you have to pick the right people to work with and the "right people" are not necessarily the high-profile SEO "experts" that make a lot of noise on their blogs.
You lost me when you said you admired the G.R.Q. guy.
What cracks me up about Shoe's post is one used car salesman calling out other used car salemen, quite amusing.
i am still trying to swallow the "95% of SEO experts suck" kind of statement coming from an effing affiliate marketer. Industry that is based on regurgitating content.
He is a great guy, I love his vlogs and read his every post, but this one is... I don't even know how to characterize it. His remarks can be directed against 90% of anything in the world and the affiliate marketers out there top the list. I mean, how many affiliate marketers there are like him or Chow ? 0.03% ?
an the remark about having search engine engineers numbers in the cellphone ?! WTF ? How does that have anything to do with anything ?
I refuse to accept this post at its face value. There must be more than that to it...
Well, I like Shoemoney -- lots -- and have a lot of respect for what he says. But I didn't agree with Jason Calacanis last year when he said 90% of the industry was snake oils salesmen and wrote a long rant about that. In particular, since we don't even have a census of the people doing SEO, I'm hesitant for anyone to toss out numbers. Shoe did say in the headline "experts" rather than SEOs, but in his paragraph, he talks about SEOs in general and says "most" are slimy.
Anyway, to add what I left there:
As for the numbered points -- try substituting "PR people" for SEO, and the list works fine. Seriously. Of course, PR people don't have a great rep either.
Anyway, me -- I'm going to chock it up to Shoemoney being ticked at being baited and figuring he'll do a little baiting back.
For years I have been battling the opinions of others over SEO and its benefits. What I am tired of are the people in our industry that many of the previous comments refer. The ones who think they know what they are doing and then piss off 100 people(clients) and they tell 10 people each and then we have a witch hunt going against our profession. Our sales team doesn't have a week go by where they talk to someone that has the sentiment of hatred towards SEO/SEM.
My problem with these types of blog posts are that anyone can make up a number "95%" and then right about something because they are pissed off. Now if Shoemoney didn't have such a shocking title would any of us read his article. If it stated "Why I do not like 10% of SEO Experts", there wouldn't have been a reason for me to open it up in my reader.
All we can do is vent a little to our friends. Hope that this rant want get a lot of placement in the SERPs. So lets just stop linking to it brush it under the rug. And chalk it to him having his monthly dude PMS.
Shoemoney has posted this opinion before. :)
Also remember that the SEO crowd are terribly easy to bait, so anyone with a modicorum of visibility can easily grab a big slice of link love by saying SEO is crap, and watch the SEO's run around to refute it.
Sometimes I think people must enjoy doing that. :)
Jeez guys. I go to bed with one comment, wake up and and the likes of Danny are in here.
My problem with the post is not the symantics overall. I know Shoe relies heavily on bait, and I know of his means to do so. The problem I have is that there are a large number of people that look to him (myself included).
A large portion of these people know little if not nothing of SEOs, and would use his statements as a reason to make a decision. We get plenty of black eyes ourselves thank you very much. We don't need any figures fueling th fire.
If Rand can be chastised for making what (in my opinion) is barely a mistake, then surely Shoe should also hold some responsibilty. On the other hand, I guess he does have a disclaimer.
Maybe you're right Scott, maybe I just needed to vent. But sometimes link bait, as much as we would all like to have it, crosses a line that it shouldn't.
@Andy
"So who wants to do what Neil Patel did from Pronet / ACS when Jason Calacanis said the same?"
I'm sorry, I heard Danny speak of Jason a long time ago, and made the decision to barely give him attention. What is it you are referring to?
@seofactor - Neil did an SEO analysis of Calacanis' site, and essentially embarrassed him by showing he himself was in need of an SEO consultation.
I think that's what he was referring to...
Wait a minute here. Doesnt Jeremy constantly claim that the is not a SEO? Isnt most of what he does (or did) is arbitrage through PPC, affiliate marketing? To lump the whole industry into a snake pit an saying that we need to know engineers at the three major search engines to do proper SEO sucks. But the most disappointing comment was: "The rest is all basic seo you can read about in any forum." Hmmm really? That is a pretty naive comment. Since we are calling out, who likes to see affiliate pages in PPC or search results? Not me.
We are spending so much time covering our own asses. Meanwhile, readers don't care about the reputation of the SEO industry; the question is "what can an SEO firm do for me?" If you can answer that question convincingly, it doesn't matter what Jason or Shoe says. Instead, readers are bombarded by SEO blog posts about why Google is evil. How does that convince a potential client you know what you're doing?
If I'd just received the same email Shoe did...I'd be pissed enough to write a snarky post, too. I mean, who was that clown?
@ halfdeck: i agree with you... (here and your comment on the original post as well)
"Instead, readers are bombarded by SEO blog posts about why Google is evil." I have had clients come to me and tell me news of how SEO's feel about a certian situation instead of how the situation really is...
As a member of the SEO community (in some form or another) I enjoy reading people's opinions on what's going on in the industry but it's easy for people that are coming to me for a service to read this stuff. This type of posting is going to be common though in the industry and it's not always bad but I agree that it comes down to how you can answer "what can an SEO firm do for me?"
@tambre and Halfdeck - I couldn't agree more. Some SEO blogs are meant for that kind of thing though. Mine really isn't supposed to be.
I explained in a comment that my blog used to be full of "beginner" stuff, mostly posted as I learned things myself. My blatent disregard for backup process and my curiousity to try Drupal (which is pissing me off right now, by the way) ended in me losing a ton of posts, and starting over. Lesson learned I guess. I got so wrapped up in social stuff lately, kinda forgot the reason I started the blog in the first place. As part of my resolution, I'm going to be rehashing those old posts in a different way.
I'm also getting/have gotten in touch with a few organizations in my area to put something together (a packet) with basic information about SEO and Internet marketing, along with questions to ask and common misconceptions.
I'm no Rand or Danny, but I do OK. I have a full time SEO position, and I get Freelance as they come, so my goal for the blog/public voice is to educate the "new guys" that aren't my customers.
Maybe I just needed Halfdeck to slap me.
The reputation issue has been, and remains, a big issue. I don't think I have it in me right now for another defense of the space. I've just done too many over the years. We've had talk of certifications, then we've had huge pushback on that idea (and for some excellent reasons), fights over white hat/black hat versus it's actually about performance and keeping your client properly informed. I've probably done three or four keynotes on the subject, but still it sits.
But it's also important because for 12 or 13 years now we've had SEO, and IT IS NOT GOING AWAY. People still want it. And people actually do need it. Anyone who has sat on a site clinic-style panel knows this. You have people who are clueless about the fundamentals of basic SEO -- and yeah, they can learn it, it's not the rocket science to those in the know, but no -- it's not always you slap up good content and the traffic flows in. SEO can help -- people want it, and there are good SEOs out there that provide it.
I don't know what the reputation solution is. Maybe SEMPO can step up. Maybe the SEO community itself can find a way -- though the comments on Shoemoney's blog suggest that even SEOs are happy to call themselves scum.
Yeah I refrain from calling myself scum. I'm proud of this community and industry, as tarnished as it may seem to the outside world. I've stated many times that I've had the pleasure to meet and speak with some of the greatest people in the world because of SEO, I've been able to help small business owners (my niche, I guess) who just start out, and I've found a knack for something I enjoy.
I am interested in the idea of certs or SEMPO. But then there's another issue all together. With every industry there seems to be a few bad seeds. Aaron just posted recently on his discontent with SEMPO because of a bad experience. Perhaps that is what you meant by "step it up?"
The other problem I see, and hope to find a way to fill, is that most organizations or training courses are set up with SEOs in mind, and targetted that way. We are SEOs. Sure we could continue to learn, God knows I would kill a man to get to an SMX, but we don't do a lot to reach the new business owner before the wolves. I think that's where I'm going to put my attention.
So calling myself "scum?" Nah, my ex-wife does just fine without me helping her.
Shoemoney ain't the first monkey to seek attention by flinging doo-doo through the bars of his cage. I don't think 95% is exactly accurate, but a lot of people selling themselves SEOs are incompetent. A lot of people up on podiums at conferences say some really, really stupid stuff.
To Jeremy's point, a lot of SEOs don't seem to understand anything outside of keywords and rankings. When you're sufficiently aware of the larger picture of marketing and branding, SEO becomes just another channel, and it's amazing how many solicitations I get from incompetent people calling themselves SEO experts.
What I hate about Jeremy's post was how he cheapened the definition of an "expert" to make his point. The idiots who told him to change his title (erase his brand) are not experts.
In terms of stepping it up, as in industry organization, I'd like to see it do more to improve the industry reputation. So far, it has raised awareness of the industry in some quarters -- but 10 reasons why SEOs aren't scumsuckers? Never seen that. In the early days, it couldn't do this since people were barely comfortable with any industry organization at all. Since then, it has strengthened.
a lot of words have been put into my mouth and i have recieved a lot of hate mail over it... all deserved of course ;)
Unlike Jason calicanis I will be open to debate this topic on a webmaster radio show with any seo who wants to talk openly about it.
I debated Rand on the disclosure issue a while back and I think he would say it was a fair debate.
Shoe,
Hey I hope I didn't put words into your mouth. As for hate mail, well, I certainly hope I didn't have anything to do with that either (well deserved IMO as well :). I love debate and discussion, but I don't much care for arguements.
Gosh I haven't listened to WMR since they started charging. When will the slot be? And is there still a chat?
That is a little unfair on Jason, he did eventually have a few SEOs on his Podcast though that was to help him get more press for Mahalo
Now what a smart SEO would do is write a story as a basis to get on Rockstartup with Shoe and Ted, plus free entry to SXSWi flight, board and spending money